Where are Eminem and Ludacris in your list of greats?

[Bob]

I've been spending time really evaluating my top list of all time (in opposed to studying for finals ), and I have definitely changed my mind on alot of things. I realized I can be realllllly influenced by hip hop's current climate. And by what some rappers say in self-promotion. But it seems as many times as I look at it, I realllly feel that Ludacris needs a spot somewhere, but I can't place him. Eminem, on the other hand, as much as I can lock myself into listening to him, seems to always just be here for the now, and not someone I see as a legend ten years from now.

Maybe I'm just on the Ludacris bandwagon, but creatively, metaphorically, I have such a hard time putting too many rappers ahead of him. And now he's really starting to bring out important aspects into his rap. He never "limited himself to the south" so he doesn't just sit there as a great South rapper; I believe you can discard the "South" tag.

The other thing is, I see that we almost make our list as an East Coast Exclusive, with 2 to 3 exceptions. Are we just blind by the East Coast version of Hip hop? Or is that just the greatest "brand" if you will?

I can't get over the fact I want Ludacris in my list, but I can't figure out where because he's almost like an exclusive case to himself. Eminem is just like there and I have no clue how to rank him.

Can we even rank? maybe we have to say "Best rappers of this type of hip hop" "Best rappers of that type of hip hop"

Any Ideas? It's bugging me to no end....

Edited December 13, 2006 by Bob

[Turntable]

Eminem is major skilled, I cant front about that. While Luda's is aight, he's not a sick as Em. But he still often releases better stuff than Em.

[Da Brakes]

Eminem is major skilled, I cant front about that. While Luda's is aight, he's not a sick as Em. But he still often releases better stuff than Em.

Correction. Eminem WAS major skilled

[DaAce]

eminem = unranked due to inconsistency and wack rhymes

ludacris = not a bad mainstream mc but on my list, somewhere between 75-100

[bigted]

I don't think I could really list them, I don't really feel them that much, sorry, there's many mcs better than both, maybe if Luda could make more albums like his recent one I'll list him somewhere, now Eminem really has been annoying for quite awhile, I hear his new one's better than some of his recent stuff but really nothing amazing

[BamF]

I definetly rank Eminem above Ludacris basically all becuase of Curtain Call.But I can't stand Eminem's The Slim Shady LP and The Marshall Mathers LP.Those albums were just plain wack.

[Da Brakes]

I definetly rank Eminem above Ludacris basically all becuase of Curtain Call.But I can't stand Eminem's The Slim Shady LP and The Marshall Mathers LP.Those albums were just plain wack.

Are you serious?? In my opinion 'Infinite', 'Slim Shady LP' and 'Marshall Mathers LP' were his best works! He was so creative and lyrical on those albums! Now he just babbles!

[derrickbrock14]

Eminem is major skilled, I cant front about that. While Luda's is aight, he's not a sick as Em. But he still often releases better stuff than Em.

Correction. Eminem WAS major skilled

correction eminem IS MAJORED SKILLED

[Da Brakes]

Eminem is major skilled, I cant front about that. While Luda's is aight, he's not a sick as Em. But he still often releases better stuff than Em.

Correction. Eminem WAS major skilled

correction eminem IS MAJORED SKILLED

I honestly don't see how anyone can say that Em is still skilled! What was the last decent verse he put out when he wasn't babbling?? Look back over 'Infinite' 'SSLP' and 'MMLP' and tell me thats the same Em spitting today. Its incomparable! His rhyme scheme has fallen waaaaaaaaaaaay off, his subject matter, everything about him! I used to be the biggest Eminem fan back in the days when he was lyrical but not it annoys me now to listen to anything he is on! He is not the same rapper as he was early on in his career. FACT!

Here is Em in my opinion at his peak:

Jay Z feat Eminem - Renegades

Since I'm in a position to talk to these kids and they listen

I ain't no politician but I'll kick it with 'em a minute

Cause see they call me a menace; and if the shoe fits I'll wear it

But if it don't, then y'all can swallow the truth grin and bear it

Now who's the king of these rude ludicrous lucrative lyrics

Who could inherit the title, put the youth in hysterics

Usin his music to steer it, sharin his views and his merits

But there's a huge interference - they're sayin you shouldn't hear it

Maybe it's hatred I spew, maybe it's food for the spirit

Maybe it's beautiful music I made for you to just cherish

But I'm debated disputed hated and viewed in America

as a motherf***in drug addict - like you didn't experiment?

Now now, that's when you start to stare at who's in the mirror

and see yourself as a kid again, and you get embarrased

And I got nothin to do but make you look stupid as parents

You f***in do-gooders too bad you couldn't do good at marriage!

(Ha ha!) And do you have any clue what I had to do to get here I don't

think you do so stay tuned and keep your ears glued to the stereo

Cause here we go - he's {*Jigga joint Jigga-chk-Jigga*}

And I'm the sinister, Mr. Kiss-My-Ass it's just a

And this is his recent offering

Akon feat Eminem - Smack That

Ooh! Looks like another club banger.

They better hang on.

When I throw this thang on.

Get a little drink on. They goin' flip.

[ these lyrics found on http://www.completealbumlyrics.com ]

For this Akon ****. You can bank on it.

Pedicure, manicure, kitty cat claws.

The way she climbs up and down them poles.

Lookin' like one of them Pretty Cat Dolls.

Tryna hold my woody back through my drawers.

Steps off stage, didn't think I saw her.

Creeps up behind me and she's like, you're -

I'm like, yeah I know, let's cut to the chase.

No time to waste. Back to my place.

Plus from the club to the crib's like a mile away.

Or more like a palace, shall I say.

And plus I got a pal. Every gal is game.

In fact he's the one singing the song that's playing!

(Akon!)

Now look at the way the sentences are constructed and the rhyme pattern! You'd think two different rappers wrote and recorded this. Think what you want but to call the Eminem that is out now 'majorly skilled' is just plain wrong! :shakehead:

[Cozmo D]

Eminem is major skilled, I cant front about that. While Luda's is aight, he's not a sick as Em. But he still often releases better stuff than Em.

Correction. Eminem WAS major skilled

correction eminem IS MAJORED SKILLED

I honestly don't see how anyone can say that Em is still skilled! What was the last decent verse he put out when he wasn't babbling?? Look back over 'Infinite' 'SSLP' and 'MMLP' and tell me thats the same Em spitting today. Its incomparable! His rhyme scheme has fallen waaaaaaaaaaaay off, his subject matter, everything about him! I used to be the biggest Eminem fan back in the days when he was lyrical but not it annoys me now to listen to anything he is on! He is not the same rapper as he was early on in his career. FACT!

Here is Em in my opinion at his peak:

Jay Z feat Eminem - Renegades

Since I'm in a position to talk to these kids and they listen

I ain't no politician but I'll kick it with 'em a minute

Cause see they call me a menace; and if the shoe fits I'll wear it

But if it don't, then y'all can swallow the truth grin and bear it

Now who's the king of these rude ludicrous lucrative lyrics

Who could inherit the title, put the youth in hysterics

Usin his music to steer it, sharin his views and his merits

But there's a huge interference - they're sayin you shouldn't hear it

Maybe it's hatred I spew, maybe it's food for the spirit

Maybe it's beautiful music I made for you to just cherish

But I'm debated disputed hated and viewed in America

as a motherf***in drug addict - like you didn't experiment?

Now now, that's when you start to stare at who's in the mirror

and see yourself as a kid again, and you get embarrased

And I got nothin to do but make you look stupid as parents

You f***in do-gooders too bad you couldn't do good at marriage!

(Ha ha!) And do you have any clue what I had to do to get here I don't

think you do so stay tuned and keep your ears glued to the stereo

Cause here we go - he's {*Jigga joint Jigga-chk-Jigga*}

And I'm the sinister, Mr. Kiss-My-Ass it's just a

And this is his recent offering

Akon feat Eminem - Smack That

Ooh! Looks like another club banger.

They better hang on.

When I throw this thang on.

Get a little drink on. They goin' flip.

[ these lyrics found on http://www.completealbumlyrics.com ]

For this Akon ****. You can bank on it.

Pedicure, manicure, kitty cat claws.

The way she climbs up and down them poles.

Lookin' like one of them Pretty Cat Dolls.

Tryna hold my woody back through my drawers.

Steps off stage, didn't think I saw her.

Creeps up behind me and she's like, you're -

I'm like, yeah I know, let's cut to the chase.

No time to waste. Back to my place.

Plus from the club to the crib's like a mile away.

Or more like a palace, shall I say.

And plus I got a pal. Every gal is game.

In fact he's the one singing the song that's playing!

(Akon!)

Now look at the way the sentences are constructed and the rhyme pattern! You'd think two different rappers wrote and recorded this. Think what you want but to call the Eminem that is out now 'majorly skilled' is just plain wrong! :shakehead:

OK,

I probably shouldn't even be sharing this, and I want to preface it with a disclaimer that I am not stating an opinion one way or the other, and that y'all should draw your own conclusions. However, I know what students of rhyme styles many of y'all are, and I know y'all definitely follow Em a great deal more than I do, so here goes.

When "My Name Is" first came out I was introduced to Em at my lawyer's office, who was also Em's manager. I complemented him by saying that "yo, you're mad funny man, but you really got some skills too." He said "that's cause my boy here is my ghost writer" and introduced me to his black homeboy that was rollin' with him, Proof. I said "get the f*** outta here" and Proof jokingly said some nonsense about "yo, I sit down with my pen and morph into a whiteboy" or sumthin stupid like that. I was kind shaking my head after that, I mean even if it was true why would he admit it? However, when I talked to other peeps about it they quickly convinced me that I was being clowned, which made all the sense in the world. After all, I was probably just some obscure one-hit-wonder Old School cat from the '80s to them.

A while later I shared this with my son, who is himself a rapper and a serious rap aficionado (he's 23 now), and of course he thought I was being clowned as well. Then D12 came out, and it seemed real funny to me that Proof's flow sounded EXACTLY like Em's. I pointed this out to him and he thought I was right, but chalked it up to the fact that they had been down with each other and so close for so long. Of course I pointed out to him that in TRUE Hip-Hop that was the exact reason that MC's went through great pains to NOT sound like each other. After all, nobody wants peeps to think that they bit their boy's style. But, I just settled that it's a new age in Rap and cats these days don't care about sounding unique.

Then last April, tragically, Proof was killed. I liked the cat even though I only met him that one time, so it saddened me. Still, it's been a long time since I checked for Eminem as a rapper seriously, since I have been on my Music Industry Anarchist kick for a minnit now. But, tonight I saw this thread, and a little light went off in my head. I haven't heard anything by Em in some time, so I'm totally in the dark here, but it's funny that somebody, ESPECIALLY a rapper like Brakes who's lyrics and style I admire and respect, would say that Eminem's lyrics and flow then and now sound like they were written by two different people. Then, as I'm writing this post, my son calls home from work and I ask him his opinion, and he says yeah, he's thought this for some time now, and that he noticed the change right about the time that Proof was killed. My son then said "maybe there was more truth to what he told you than I thought..."

Hmmmm........ :shrug:

[DaAce]

Very interesting and informative... thanks for sharing this with the people because i too discovered a certain flaw with his flow. I never considered that he would have used a ghostwriter but it makes you question the game today. Its definately something to think about and im glad Cozmo shared this piece with us. R.I.P. Proof

[JumpinJack AJ]

Hmmm....well, i think Ludacris' current song with Mary J. Blige is dope. I actually liked he's 1st read break on Timbaland's solo album...so there is a song here and there that he's done that i like. But over all, i don't feel him. His flow usually annoys me (less is more...his simpler flow is much better than his usual flow). Alot of his lyrics don't mean anything either. He just writes random bars that don't make much sense or contain any solid subject matter. He makes most of his bar connect with the word "and" so it appears that they actually work 2gether. Looking at his career, it looks like over the years, he'll turn out much better than where he's been out (cuz when i listened 2 his new album, there waz 2 or 3 trax i thought were okay). I wouldn't rank him in the top 100.

Eminem used 2 have crazy skilly. The Slim Shady LP is amazing. The lyrics are just complex, crazy, funny, edgy. And even tho' The Marshal Mathers LP seemed a lil' less focused, i still liked more than half of that album. Eminem waz truely talented back then. Shortly after tho', his music went 2 hell. His other albums SUCK. He got sucked up in2 gimmicks and uninspired commercial rap. He lost alot of respect from alot of Hip-Hop fans. When u look at his fanbase, they are pretty much all white high school kids who never stepped foot in the hood. Most of his music since 2000 has sucked...but he's had a few good songs here and there. Since i used 2 be a big fan of his, i peeped The Re-Up outta curiosity and i gotta say that a few of the songs aren't bad. They aren't anywhere near The Slim Shady LP, but 2 or 3 trax are actually pretty good. The artists he surrounds himself with are trash tho.' If Eminem keeps doing what he has been doing, i wouldn't rank him either. However, when u are talking about Eminem who put out The Slim Shady LP, i'd rank him at a respectable 100ish thru' 80ish. Let's not overlook the hurdreds of emcees who actually deserve a very high ranking.

[Da Brakes]

Thanks for that piece of info Cozmo! Thats very interested indeed! :2thumbs:

[Da Brakes]

I was just looking thru some freetyles I had on my computer and found this! What Cozmo said is sounding more and more true! Especially the fact that Em and Proof RIP sound the same with regards to style and lyrics!

http://www.yousendit.com/download/MLkeCg2mz4N5TA%3D%3D

[Bob]

Eminem is major skilled, I cant front about that. While Luda's is aight, he's not a sick as Em. But he still often releases better stuff than Em.

Correction. Eminem WAS major skilled

correction eminem IS MAJORED SKILLED

I honestly don't see how anyone can say that Em is still skilled! What was the last decent verse he put out when he wasn't babbling?? Look back over 'Infinite' 'SSLP' and 'MMLP' and tell me thats the same Em spitting today. Its incomparable! His rhyme scheme has fallen waaaaaaaaaaaay off, his subject matter, everything about him! I used to be the biggest Eminem fan back in the days when he was lyrical but not it annoys me now to listen to anything he is on! He is not the same rapper as he was early on in his career. FACT!

Here is Em in my opinion at his peak:

Jay Z feat Eminem - Renegades

Since I'm in a position to talk to these kids and they listen

I ain't no politician but I'll kick it with 'em a minute

Cause see they call me a menace; and if the shoe fits I'll wear it

But if it don't, then y'all can swallow the truth grin and bear it

Now who's the king of these rude ludicrous lucrative lyrics

Who could inherit the title, put the youth in hysterics

Usin his music to steer it, sharin his views and his merits

But there's a huge interference - they're sayin you shouldn't hear it

Maybe it's hatred I spew, maybe it's food for the spirit

Maybe it's beautiful music I made for you to just cherish

But I'm debated disputed hated and viewed in America

as a motherf***in drug addict - like you didn't experiment?

Now now, that's when you start to stare at who's in the mirror

and see yourself as a kid again, and you get embarrased

And I got nothin to do but make you look stupid as parents

You f***in do-gooders too bad you couldn't do good at marriage!

(Ha ha!) And do you have any clue what I had to do to get here I don't

think you do so stay tuned and keep your ears glued to the stereo

Cause here we go - he's {*Jigga joint Jigga-chk-Jigga*}

And I'm the sinister, Mr. Kiss-My-Ass it's just a

And this is his recent offering

Akon feat Eminem - Smack That

Ooh! Looks like another club banger.

They better hang on.

When I throw this thang on.

Get a little drink on. They goin' flip.

[ these lyrics found on http://www.completealbumlyrics.com ]

For this Akon ****. You can bank on it.

Pedicure, manicure, kitty cat claws.

The way she climbs up and down them poles.

Lookin' like one of them Pretty Cat Dolls.

Tryna hold my woody back through my drawers.

Steps off stage, didn't think I saw her.

Creeps up behind me and she's like, you're -

I'm like, yeah I know, let's cut to the chase.

No time to waste. Back to my place.

Plus from the club to the crib's like a mile away.

Or more like a palace, shall I say.

And plus I got a pal. Every gal is game.

In fact he's the one singing the song that's playing!

(Akon!)

Now look at the way the sentences are constructed and the rhyme pattern! You'd think two different rappers wrote and recorded this. Think what you want but to call the Eminem that is out now 'majorly skilled' is just plain wrong! :shakehead:

ok come on now, i can't be quiet on this one. Em was the king of controversial lyrics, but then people said, well can he make a club banger, and he showed he easily can with smack that.

but hey, if you're going to run renegade lyrics against his new stuff, why not against his new stuff that is worth comparing in terms of being serious subject matter? Smack that and renegade had two different audiences meant to address. Now try putting Renegade up against No apologies:

No Apologies- Eminem

Verse 1:

In my mind I'm a fighter, my heart's a lighter.

My soul is the fluid, my flow sparks it right up.

An arsenic writer, author with arthritis

carpal tunnel, Marshall with start ****-itis

hardheaded and hotheaded

bullheaded and pigheaded

dick-headed, a prick, a big headache

I'm sick, quick-witted for every lyric spitted

there are six critics who wait for me to slip with it

so quick this dynamite stick

bury the wick its gonna explode

any minute some lunatic lit it and it's not Nelly

do not tell me to stop yelling, when I stop selling I'll quit so

stop dwelling, I am not failing

you ****ers are not ready

cause I got jelly like Beyonce's pot belly

this is destiny, yes money

I'm off runnning so get off of me

I'm not slowing or softening.

Verse 2:

My head hits the pillow, a weepin' willow

I can't sleep, a pain so deep it bellows

but these cellos help just to keep me mellow

hands on my head, touch knees to elbows

I'm hunched over emotion just flows over

these cold shoulders are both frozen, you don't know me

I keep sayin' it. I cant stress it enough

so keep playin' it and stand next to the subs

I choke mics like asphyxiation

while I'm strangling my own throat masturbatin' (haha)

**** yeah I'm a basketcase and I master this rap **** til' my ass gets wasted.

til' my assassination, til' I'm slain cause of some fag's infatuation

44 mag, a fascination, a taste for disaster and if thats the case then.

Verse 3:

This song isn't for you it's for me, A true MC

it's what I do just to see if he still has it and if his skills mastered

he's able to spill raps long after he's killed

that's a, real MC, got you feelin' me

whether willing or unwillingly you still agree

As long as there's still this hunger and will in me

Then expect the longer life expectancy

I'd be a savage beast if I ain't have this outlet to salvage me inside

I'd be exploding soaked in self loathing and mourning

So I’m warning you don’t coax me its silly

I'm really a sheep in wolf's clothing

who only reacts when he gets pushed don't be

fooled the press blows up this whole thing

it's stupid, they don't know cause they don't see

that I'm wounded all they did was ballooned it

I'm sick of talking bout these tattoos Cartoon did

thats why i tuned it out, I'm sick of dukin'

and they can suck my dick while I'm pukin'

and you too you can expect no sympathy from me

I'm an MC, this is how I'm supposed to be

cold as a G my hearts frozen, it don't even beat

so expect no apologies

expect no sympathy from me

I'm an MC, this is how I'm supposed to be

cold as a G, my hearts frozen it don't even beat

so expect no apologies.

Now I'm not saying No apologies is better, but it definitely carries itself alongside Renegade. Eminem hasn't lost skill, he's just diversified. Most rappers go from club bangers to branching out into thought-provoking music. Em WAS ONLY thought-provoking music, and decided recently, with Shake that, smack that, and Welcome to Detroit to try and have some fun. But he still got it.