bigted

Yeah Outkast's 1st album ranks among the all-time great albums, well it always seems to be the case with every great artist, they make a huge impact when they come out and the rest of what they do gets compared to that. In all fairness Will hasn't really made anything bigger than "Summertime" either, it's better than anything Will has done put together too, it's just about creative and staying in the game but your legacy's set with what you do early in your career, on that note I was dissapointed with their last album as much as I was with "Born To Reign", it's cool to experiment but they went too far that it sounded corny, especially Andre 3000, hopefully they go back to that raw sound they had in the mid-90s or at least sound like "Stankonia".

Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five had ghostwriters for "The Message" believe it or not according to this hip-hop book "Can't Stop, Won't Stop", only Melle Mel wrote his verse that came from an old version of "Superrappin'" but if it's ok for Dr. Dre to have ghostwriters and it's even ok Kanye and Will to have help too, so it's ok for them too, artists from other music genres don't write all their songs either so who gives a damn as long as the music is good. "It was credited to Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five, but the story behind that revealed other tensions as well. The song was a home -studio concoction of Sugar Hill songwriter and house band percussionist Ed "Duke Boatee" Fletcher, featuring a memorable synthesizer hook from Jiggs Chase, that weemed to bear the influence of Peter Tosh's "Steppin' Razor" and Black Uhuru's Red. Bootee and Sugar Hill mogul Sylvia Robinson could not interest Flash in recording it. He and the rappers felt the song had no energy, that the lyrics would get them booed offstage by their hardcore fans. You went to the party to forget about **** like this. But Robinson and Bootee recorded the track anyway, peeling off Furious Five rapper Melle Mel to add his last verse from a forgotten version of "Superrappin'". Robinson decided "The Message" had to be released as a single. Flash saw where this was going, and he pushed the rest of the Five into the studio to try to rap Bootee's lines. It didn't work. Instead, Bootee and Robinson added them at the end of the record, in streetside arrest skit recalling Stevie Wonder's interlude in "Living for the City". But Pandora's Box had been opened. The ensuing tug-of-wars between the group and the label and between Flash and Mel resulted in Flash leaving Sugar Hill the following year. The video appeared, with Flash and the crew lip-synching along to a rap only Mel had helped compose. Sugar Hill's second most important rap record had been as A&R-driven and market-driven as its first, and the consequences for hip-hop music were also forreaching. Not only was "The Message" another boast for the rapper over the DJ, the crew itself become dramatic casualty of rap's realignment towards copywrights, trademarks, executives, agents, lawyers, and worldwide audiences. By the end of 1983, there were two groups called the Furious Five, competing in civil court for the rights to the name, and dousing their creative fires under thousands of dollars of cocaine. From this point, questions of ownership and authorship would become hip-hop generation obsessions. But Robinson's instincts had been exactly right: the record became the fifth rap single to reach gold-selling status. The single certainly did not represent the first time post-'60s rappers had chosen to touch on themes of social dislocation and institutional racism-Kurtis Blow's "The Breaks", "Hard Times", and "Tough", Brother D and the collective Effort's "How We Gonna Make the Black Nation Rise", and Tanya "Sweet Tee" Winsley's "Vicious Rap" were just some of the recorded samples. But because it was set to a beat too slow to rock a crowd, "The Message" focused the listener on Bootee and Mel's vivid lyrics and their delivery -neither frenetic nor flamboyant, but instead, by turn, resigned and enraged. Flash's instincts had been correct, too, it was the grimmest, most downbeat rap ever heard. And that vibe matched a rising digust with Reaganomics, the culmination of fifteen years of benign neglect, and a sense of hopelessness that only seemed to be deepening. Liberal music critics who had been sitting on the fence about rap jumped off with both feet. "It's been awfully easy to criticize mainstream, streetlevel rap for talking loud and saying nothing. No more," wrote Vince Aletti in The Village Voice, praise the song's chorus as "a slow chant seething with desperation and fury: and the track's "exhilarating, cinematic sprawl."

Run-Dmc didn't want to do "Walk This Way" with Aerosmith, they thought that the lyrics for it was "hilbilly gibberish" but they were convinced by Rick Rubin to do it to help hip-hop crossover so I guess I'd call that an example of dumbing down if you call "Gettin' Jiggy Wit It" dumbing down since it was basically the same way Columbia told Will that their needed to be a club anthem so he made "Gettin' Jiggy Wit It". Yeah "The Message" actually opened the doors for conscious rappers to come later on in the decade but most rappers shyed away from talkin' about the crack trade and poverty to just make party tracks, love songs, or battlin' each other but they did it to make people happy not for their own benefit unlike rappers today, that's the difference, most of the content was for all ages too on the most part too unlike now, Will's always been a party starter so he never really "dumbed down" but if we only had Run-Dmc and JJFP hip-hop wouldn't last, we needed conscious rappers like Public Enemy and NWA to bring commentary to the issues what was going on in the streets, that's what made hip-hop more unique helping it last and that's what's lacking now, after a while without subject matter hip-hop'll lose popularity. Hip-hop's always been about the youth and that doesn't change today, except it's nothin' but sex, drugs, and guns on the most part performed by rappers that don't live that life which makes older people hate hip-hop and only the younger generation loving it since they're too dumb to know about quality music, and that's what makes it dumbed down 'cause it's beyond having fun, it's encouraging kids to be thugs, "The Chronic" actually started that but you can't blame Dr. Dre that'd be like saying it was New Edition's fault that we have so many watered down singing groups now, it's a quality album but it brought the formula to how rappers make hits now, they just follow the format without being original.

Well people didn't think rap would last 'cause it wasn't that diverse at the time, rappers like Public Enemy, Boogie Down Productions, and NWA showed that rap was more than just "Yes Yes Y'all" and "Throw Ya Hands In The Air", that term "dumbing down" shouldn't be applied to anybody in the '80s of course since they were originators but how could you say Will dumbed down? He never raps about guns, hoes, or drugs like most today's rappers do, that's the true definition of dumbing down to me, the only way you could say Will dumbs down is that he makes music that makes you dance and not think a lot of the times.

Happy Birthday! :rockon:

This year's finishing strong with a lot of dope releases! Outkast Finally Ready To Drop Their New LP, Big Boi Says Idlewild due in stores on December 6. by James Montgomery When you're half of the most successful rap duo of all time, you can get pretty much anything you want. So, for example, if you were Big Boi and you wanted to announce that a new Outkast album would be hitting stores on, say, December 6, well, then it's a pretty safe bet that it'll come out on December 6. Hypothetically speaking, of course. "Me and Dre got the new Outkast album coming out December 6. It's called Idlewild, and the first single is called 'Idlewild Blues,' " Boi said. "I'm dead serious, we're cocked and loaded. The movie's done too. And it's crazy." OK then. Idlewild — the soundtrack to the long-delayed film of the same name, which still has no release date — will be out December 6, Outkast's label, LaFace Records, confirmed. In past interviews, Big Boi had hinted that the new 'Kast album would be seeing the light of day sometime this year, but until now there was no set-in-stone release date (see "Big Boi Busts Out New Label, Divulges Details About Outkast Film"). But not everything Big Boi says comes true. He told MTV News that "Idlewild Blues" would be available for digital download sometime this month, but according to LaFace, the first single off the album has yet to be determined, and thus nothing has been released digitally. While the "Idlewild" film had previously been described at the duo's attempt to emulate Prince's big-screen success (see "Outkast's Manager Says Movie, LP Will Be Their 'Purple Rain' "), Big Boi said there's little of the Purple One's velveteen touch in the film — but there is a whole lot of Giorgio Armani. "The movie is dope," he said. "It's like an Outkast album but on film, which will make the fans happy. It's like two stories going at the same time. I've seen two rough cuts, and it's outstanding. We've got Ving Rhames, Ben Vereen, Cicely Tyson, Terrence Howard, Patti LaBelle. We would show up every day suited and booted thanks to Mr. Giorgio Armani. Tailor-made to fit." He's also got one final word on yet another Outkast-related project: Big Boi Presents Got Purp? Volume 2, the first release on his new Purple Ribbon label. The album, due November 22 showcases a group of artists Big is dubbing his "Purple Ribbon All-Stars," including Sleepy Brown, Bubba Sparxxx and Killer Mike. The disc's first single, which he said was called "Kryptonite," is already hitting radio — only it's not called "Kryptonite" anymore (guess Big Boi doesn't always get everything he wants). "The first single is called 'I'm on It.' It was originally called 'Kryptonite,' " he laughed. "But for some reason, MTV wouldn't let us say it, so we had to change it. What can you do, y'know?"

Did Kweli sign Rakim yet?

Well Will can't sing that well but who really can sing these days seriously, lol? The lyrics about his daughter are deep, he shoulda rapped it like "Just The Two Of Us" though but I still dig it 'cause I sing just as bad, lol. I agree that "Maybe" sucks though, it's so damn watered down, that makes NSync sound hardcore! :rofl:

Yeah most albums out now are 75% filler anyway so what does length have to do with anything? If it's a solid album you could put it on repeat.

Well Run-DMC's "Raising Hell" was only 44 minutes long, think of it this way it's half of that this time 'cause DMC ain't on it, but 22 minutes of Rev. Run is better than 70 minutes of 50 Cent that's for damn sure.

Well even it wasn't on Death Row, "Pumps And A Bump" was looked at as MC Hammer sellin' out and going gangsta and that's what they'd say if Will signed with Aftermath, were people saying that when Rakim signed there? I don't think the hardcore Eric B. and Rakim fans would be supporting that either, there was no way that Rakim was gonna go platinum even if the album came out 'cause he's not a gangsta rapper , that's the ultimate reason why Dre dropped him probably 'cause he knows that it wouldn't work. Well people thought that Will selling out when he released "Boom! Shake The Room" too but the difference is that Will was able to regain his popularity back unlike MC Hammer but if Will signed with Aftermath it'd be worse, he'd lose the majority of his remaining fans and would have to rely on the commercial rap fans that think he's washed up anyway, it'd be a total flop, the only way it'd be platinum is if Aftermath shipped most of the albums, lol. But if Will could make an album to sound as gritty as "Code Red" production wise I'd feel it, he could write the verses for G Unit so that they won't suck if they have to appear on it and Jazzy could ghost-produce for Eminem's production, but the chances of that happening would be like KRS appearing on Nelly's next album. :stickpoke: btw I think that Tony Yayo's gonna barely ship gold so I think it's the beginning of the end of Aftermath and I think Eminem's next album's barely gonna go platinum, he's shipping 5 million this time when he was selling 10 million each of his last 3 albums, 50 Cent's the same way his first album sold over 10 million and it's only 4.5 million this time, I think Aftermath's reign is ending soon, they're gonna end up a novelty, gradually gangsta rap is gonna fade soon. Will's better off leaving Interscope and setting off Overbrook with his own money, that's the most logical choice for his future albums, that'd ruin his image, he'd be better retiring seriously than joining Aftermath.

Well if MC Hammer could sign to Death Row dancin' with half naked hoes in "Pumps In Da Bump" video, what'd be the difference if Will did it at Aftermath? I think MC Hammer lost his fanbase after he did that though so that might not be a good look for Will. :rofl:

Basically dumbing down is making music that appeals to a younger audience, nothin' more than somethin' to dance to, something extremely catchy and it started with Sugar Hill Gang's "Rappers Delight" as the 1st commercial rap single, even Run-Dmc dumbed down "Walk This Way" is catchy is hell but a classic of course, but that's why a lot of people thought that rap wouldn't last in the '80s in a sense 'cause there was nothin' more than dance songs most of the time until conscious and gangsta rappers came out and started rapping more than just about being at the club, it was looking to be a novelty like disco if that didn't happen, that's happening again except most of the dumbed down songs suck now. There's nothin' wrong with makin' fun songs but when rappers celebrate gettin' high, bangin' a lot of hoes, and having a lot of guns then that's not a good image to potray since it's being aimed to the youth that listen to the radio, even when Will dumbs down he's still keepin' the positive image, even "Party Starter" has a catchy sound to it.

There's gonna be a millions more movement concert too, what a lineup!: www.hiphoprnbsoul.com Erykah Badu, LL Cool J, Public Enemy, Rueben Studdard, Dead Prez and a host of others have signed up to perform at a benefit following the Millions More Movement, celebrating the Million Man March anniversary on Saturday October 15, 2005 on the National Mall in Washington, DC. Hosted by Free and Jason Parker, the "We Are Family" concert is slated to feature a range of artists covering contemporary rap and R&B, as well as classic soul artists. On board is LL Cool J, Erykah Badu, New Edition, Guy, Blackstreet, Dead Prez, Sister Sledge, Rueben Studdard, The Stylistics, Lisa Lisa, The Dramatics, The Chi-Lites, The Delfonics, Peaches & Herb, Club Nouveau, Meli'sa Morgan, Cameo, Lakeside, Jody Whatley and more. The concert also offers a special "Real Hip Hop Classic" which will see classic hip-hop artists Public Enemy, Big Daddy Kane, Doug E. Fresh, Whodini, Kool Mo Dee and 90s hip-hop group Poor Righteous Teachers. The "Real Hip Hop Classic" will be hosted by MC Easy A.D. (Cold Crush Brothers) and hip-hop icon DJ GrandWizzard Theodore. Presented by The Real Hip Hop Network/3rd Eye Entertainment/Poetry In Motion Entertainment, the concert will take place at the MCI Center, Friday October 15, 2005 at 7pm. Tickets are available at ticketmaster.com and all TicketMaster outlets. For more info contact 1-866-832-2756.

I saw him performing "Testify" last week on the "Regis and Kelly" show, Reggie Miller was guest hosting that day and he gave Common a high five after he was performing, that was sweet. Going gold is quite an accomplishment for a conscious rapper, it's only his 2nd one, he definately been slept on, hopefully his album goes platinum eventually, I think it'd be his first one if it did.

Hey I noticed that Rev. Run was on TRL today too with his kids and wife talkin' about his reality show, hopefully it boosts interest in his album, even Russell Simmons was there too, his 10-year old son was freestylin' too, it was dope! :rockon:

I'm surprised Talib Kweli's dropping an album so soon, he usually doesn't release albums every year, but hey I ain't complaining, I'm gonna check for it! :rockon:

Well it had a few above average moments in between but I think I'd call "Born To Reign" track the only exceptional track there, too bad it wasn't longer, but I'd rather repeat that for an hour than listen than mostly anything else on there myself, well there's enough classic albums in Will's catalog so "Born To Reign" doesn't ruin his legacy but if that was his first album his career would've been over, lol.

Yeah Nas did dumb down to get more of an audience just like Jay-Z, that's why people compare them I guess but if they made all their albums like "Illmatic" and "Reasonable Doubt" which are their lowest selling albums they'd have smaller audiences than they do now, and the massive audience opens up to discover "Illmatic" and "Reasonable Doubt" now after they're famous.

Yeah Kanye's basically like JJFP, Jay-Z, or LL on the fact that he ain't really gangsta or conscious, he's just an mc that raps about many different things, he works with all different types of artists like they do 'cause even Will collabed with Lil' Kim before too, and yes he does admit that he's human in his songs. I sometimes forget though 'cause I really don't listen to his music that much, lol, and I don't listen to all of his interviews, the only ones I happen to catch are the ones where he's bragging. But I don't agree with dumbing down though but I guess if Kanye and JJFP never dumbed down only I handful of people would listen to them, they don't do it all the time like G-Unit, but I think the conscious rappers deserve to have a massive audience just like the gangsta rappers do, there needs to be balance like LL said.

This song "Conscious Rapper" by KRS-ONE has 10X more of a powerful message than "Jesus Walks", he's the most skilled conscious rapper that ever lived in my opinion, I think it's on the same level as "Lost and Found", too bad this couldn't been a huge single, this would put the whole rap industry in its place, Kanye needs to listen to this too, he should releasise that he shouldn't "expect respect from slaves and hoes/or the slavemasters video shows/nor the rap mags/especially black mags, you know how that goes"(when he complains about getting a higher rating than he did or not getting enough awards): You think this is easy right? (Yeah!) You think this is easy right? (That's easy!) You think you got what it takes? (Yeah that's easy!) Huh, we gon' see.. we gon' see right now (Now what?) Look [KRS-One] So you wanna be a conscious rapper Can you handle the press and they negative chatter Can you eat cold platters, and still spit data Watchin others spit lies and they pockets get fatter Can you climb up the ladder, and reach the top? But it still doesn't matter, cause you ain't pop Can you rock for the love of the art Can you drop hit after hit after hit and still don't chart? Can you REALLY stay loyal to God when your life is full of strife, plus it always seems so hard Can you handle the criticism People holdin you up to higher standards, but they don't live 'em? Can you hear these kiddy flows and laugh at it But when you spit they callin you arrogant? You better think about that before you rock to this Sometimes it's easier to pop your Cris', let's do it! [Chorus: *sung*] Think you can do what I do Think you can step in my shoes You have no clue what I go through You never felt my pain When they attack my name All because I have spoken the truth [KRS-One] To be a conscious rapper ain't a mystery You gotta laugh when they call you contradictory The whole industry, you gotta push and pull it To really get with me, you gotta dodge they bullets Blaow, blaow, blaow, every day and every way You critics got somethin to say At the same time, you gotta uphold Christ Uphold life, while others flash cars and ice It could break you down, take you down, make you frown It could actually shake your ground But if you love who you are, and believe in that Best believe you will BE where the teacher's at And where's that? In fact, in cold or heat Yes, I declare victory over the streets Overstand, over these beats, over the so-called elite Over the strong, over the weak I know how to speak, and most of all I know how to eat I know I want humble and meek So you better think about that before you rock to this Sometimes it's easier to pop your Cris', uhh [Chorus] [KRS-One] Look! So you thinkin about bein a concious MC Well you gotta love God and you got to live free You got to see the life that others can't see You got to be the person that others can't be You can't be a S-L-A, V-E If you sayin to yourself, "This may be me" Then you know goin in that you work against sin Your very skills will kill the demons within So don't expect respect from slaves and hoes Nor the slavemaster's video shows Nor the rap mags, you know how it go Especially black mags, you know they don't know Just go to the crowd that you know will need you Cause NOTHING compares to the respect of the people That's what you look for, that's what you work with Cause anything else, is truly worthless You better think about that before you rock to this Sometimes it's easier to just pop your Cris' You better think about that, 'fore you rock to this Sometimes it's easier to just pop your Cris', uhh [Chorus] - repeat 2X

It comes out next Tuesday here in the US, btw the Rev. Run reality show'll be on tonight at 10:30 PM on MTV, he was on Regis and Kelly this morning talkin' about it and his album too.

Mase, Mase, Mase... There are so many stories as to why he left music and New York, very few people know exactly what to belive. As for Kanye... I'm not sure we can compare a song like "Workout Plan" to "Girls." Yeah "Workout Plan" is much more explicit and wacker than "Girls..." and is the reason why I wouldn't consider Kanye a conscious rapper, if he released "Breathe In, Breathe Out" and threw in half-naked hoes instead of "Jesus Walks", he wouldn't be called conscious at all, I don't understand how people could raise the bar so high on him as a rapper to be the savior of rap 'cause he follows the same trends that other commercial rappers do, he collabs with so many of those commercial rappers, any protege of Jay-Z is not gonna clean up the rap game, he dumbs down just like Jay-Z does but at least Jigga could flow, even a flow could go only so far without subject matter. In his interviews though he does hype himself as the savior of rap so I guess if you put it that way, I guess there's no reason for people not to diss him. The point that I was making is Kanye is just as human as JJFP are, it ain't like they never looked at porno before either I'm sure, especially since thye had groupies back stage and I'm sure they weren't eating milk and cookies, lol. If we're talkin' morals JJFP could be hold accountable for that just as much as Kanye, just 'cause they make better music they Kanye doesn't excuse them, who am I to judge though, I ain't perfect either. Now critics could criticise JJFP for bangin' hoes backstage when they didn't make songs about celebrating that, then again Will admitted that he was wrong for doing that in "Afro Angel", so maybe if Kanye did that then it'd be all good then. Now if we get back to the music where I could be more critical, lol, I think JJFP are closer to conscious rap than Kanye is, the only ones I truely consider conscious rappers are the ones that don't follow trends to sell records, they might only 10,000-20,000 albums but they don't dumb down into something they ain't, that's why we don't have KRS and Lil' Brother selling 2 million like Kanye not that they ain't talented enough to do that, they just don't dumb down, you could Will dumbs down too with "Gettin' Jiggy Wit It" type songs but he keeps it clean and respectful still so it's ok for him to dumb down, it ain't like he's rappin' about doing drugs or how his guns are bigger than Lil' Bow Wow, he just raps about clean fun. The problem of the rap game is like LL said there's no balance, we don't have every rapper clean cut like JJFP but not every rapper should be as explicit as Dr. Dre either, nobody has to be a role model, they should be themselves instead of trying to be somebody else, don't try to be clean cut if you ain't, don't be hardcore when you're really soft as a cupcake, that's what it comes down to.

The ironic thing is that, I'm willing to bet, the majority of modern rappers live "better" lives than they rap about. Kids probably would be better off seeing those rappers real lives rather then listening to their music. Lol, excellent point. As Cozmo said, a lot of these rappers are making music depicting themselves as international drug lords while they're claiming that they're keeping it real. It's one thing when it's simply entertainment, and even then, a lot of the content in these rhymes is questionable, but when the line is blurred between entertainment and reality as many of these rappers have done, it becomes apparent that a lot of them don't even remember how to keep it real. In that respect, Kanye's a better pick, but I think we can still do better. There's something wrong with the rap game if people consider Kanye West the most conscious rapper 'cause he's not, his music is far from that, and I think it's quite overrated so maybe that's what makes me want to not be open minded about his personal life, he looks up to Mase maybe that's why he contradicts himself, the next topic we'll be discussing soon is Kanye West signing to G Unit records, he already talks about wanting to record with Eminem so that wouldn't be much of a stretch...

I think Turntable was only joking Wes! :paperbag: