Current thoughts on middle east

[MaxFly]

I know that many if not most of the members on this forum are from other countries, and I think it would be interesting as well as enlightening to hear what your thoughts are on the events that are taking place in the middle east, especially with the elections having taken place in Iraq, developments in Lebanon, Iran's movement towards nuclear capability, etc... Fully aware that much of the world sees these things differently from the US... It would be interesting to hear the next generations ideas and opinions on these issues.

[scyhigh99]

I know that many if not most of the members on this forum are from other countries, and I think it would be interesting as well as enlightening to hear what your thoughts are on the events that are taking place in the middle east, especially with the elections having taken place in Iraq, developments in Lebanon, Iran's movement towards nuclear capability, etc... Fully aware that much of the world sees these things differently from the US... It would be interesting to hear the next generations ideas and opinions on these issues.

:werd: I'd thought about puttin a post up like this tons of times before, b/c I really am interested to hear different viewpoints on stuff like this. I just wasn't sure if ppl wanted to discuss more serious types of things here, but I think it's a great place to, actually-- where else do we come in contact w/ so many different people from around the globe, w/ so many different vantage points?

Edited May 1, 2005 by scyhigh99

[Jin]

I think that's a great idea to discuss some more serious themes on this board...so i'd like to start the political discussion!

Round 1:

I was born and raised in West Germany but i my roots are in Sri Lanka...My opinion on the Iraq war is that it was unneccesary because Bush had no prove that they had a connection to al-quaida or got nuclear weapons...The main reason was the economical ressource and that's the oil. Furthermore i don't think that the Iraq or the world is more save after the war!

[scyhigh99]

I'll jump in & give my perspective on Iraq, since my first post here was just like "Hey yeah great idea!" and then I didn't really participate...

I don't think the US-led war was justifiable in any way. In a world of terrorism, and of biological and nuclear weapons, could a pre-emptive strike against a threatening regime somewhere theoretically be a correct course of action? Absolutely. But was Iraq such a situation? No. The whole argument for this hinged on the existence of weapons of mass destruction, and Saddam Hussein was clearly an oppressive, ruthless dictator, but it has become clear in the time since the invasion that we're not going to find any huge stockpile of WOMD anywhere, and that our intelligence sources that "verified" the existence of such stashes were questionable as grounds for war, at best. And the false nature of this explanation for the war has been all but verified by our lovely President Bush in that, somewhere along the line, his focus when talking about the war shifted from Iraq's ties with terrorism and the idea of preserving global safety to describing something of a heroic crusade to free the Iraqi people and bestow upon them democracy, liberty, and a McDonalds on every city block. As for this understanding, I want to believe that Iraq will be better off in the long run from the ousting of Hussein (who again, was clearly an evil ass-clown), and the first elections a few months ago and the relative (very relative) calming of violence since then have been positive signs that perhaps Iraq will grow and prosper under a democratic system-- sloooooooooooowly but surely. However, unless you are a complete consequentialist, this still doesn't justify the war morally. We went in under other pretenses! And is this freedom-crusade a universal policy? Because I'm pretty sure we pick and choose when it comes to which questionable regimes we support and which we don't, and yeah, economic and political factors dictate that. So where's the fairness there?

...Oooooooookay, that was completely disjointed and perhaps a little incoherant, but those are my basic beliefs about the situation in Iraq. I have a couple more questions to bring up, tho...

1. What do you ppl think about Michael Moore? I think he's a condescending propaganda-producer who undermines the intelligence of his audience. He is correct about alot of things, and kinda funny at times, tho. And I've read alot about his popularity abroad, so I was wondering.

2. What do you guys think about John Kerry? Don't know if you follow US politics that much (I certainly don't know anything about the runners-up in any elections outside of my country) but I was j/w what your impressions were. I think he is one of the most uncharasmatic, horrible politicians and communicators I have ever seen, and I'm pretty ashamed that the guy who managed to lose to Jorge Bush came from my state. Goodness gracious.

3. This is waaaaaaaaaay a more specific question, but I wrote an article in my school newspaper about the fact that in public buses in Boston, a recorded message plays every 20 minutes or so that says "Please report any unattended bags or suspicious behavior to the bus driver" and I was wondering what you ppl thought about that. It only started about a year ago, and I have to hear it, like, 4 or 5 times a day. Obviously very unnecessary, but also a borderline Orwellian tactic. So do you think that's as weird and unsettling as I do, or am I just overreacting b/c it disturbs my morning naps on the way to school?

and finally...

4. This isn't even somewhat Middle-East-related, but was it big news globally when the Red Sox won the World Series last fall? Seriously, because it should of been.

Edited May 1, 2005 by scyhigh99

[WesSyde]

i don't follow the war and politics and stuff like that cuz i guess i'm a shallow minded individual but Scy i will answer your question #4, it was a huge deal when the Red Sox won the WS last year even over hear in California. i'm pretty sure it was a big deal everywhere? and what's up with you making a post without unecessary smilies??? :poke: :ridepony: :slap:

[bigted]

Well my opinion is that no war is good, like Public Enemy says "Make Love F*** War", we are just repeating the same thing our ancestors went through, I thought that Bush was wrong to go to Iraq 'cause it wasn't our problem to go into in the first place, it takes more than one country to save the world, many young Americans are going over dying and it's the same ol' s*** there still, other countries bailing out to help, nothing's changing, 10 years from now it'll still be the same. We have to deal with issues right here in America like employment and social security and not just focus on the Iraq war 'cause I wanna be able to have enough to take care of my family during my life, I don't wanna have to be forced to go down the wrong path if I can't find myself a job one day, we could try to avoid the news and politics but they affect our lives, certain laws being passed could affect us in different ways. I have mixed emotion about politics because politics are very commercialized and a bunch of gimmicks, then Bill O'Reilly turns around to diss hip-hop when politics is the same way, a lot of complaining going on with promises but no solutions, that's my 2 cents for now. There's nothing wrong with having a conversation about politics or religion as long as nobody gets offended, we have to respect each others beliefs.

[Schnazz]

Iraq:

The war in Iraq infuriates me for several reasons.

Bush flat lied to American citizens, world citizens, Congress, and presumably world leaders. Just before the war, Bush, Cheney, and Powel (I used to respect at least him) told the same story; Saddam has WMD's or could have them any moment. "I don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." Yet, there never where any WMD's. And there's evidence to suggest that it was believed before the war that there weren't any WMD's. (say, the opinion of the weapon inspectors that where in Iraq) It was also stated that Iraq and Al Qaeda where in it together, yet Iraq was a secular nation and Al Qaeda is a spiritual quest. There've been many reports that Al Qeda members despised Saddam.

The next point of the war (we where told) was that it would make the world a safer place; it was a fight against terrorism. So far it's had the exact opposite effect. The number of terrorist incidents has increased this year, and it increased last year as well. Many experts on Iraq believe that it is now a terrorist breeding ground.

But, on a more general level, let's examine terrorism. Bush has told at least the American people that terrorist "hate our way of life." That may be true, but it's not our McDonalds eating, divorce getting, Will Smith listening way of life that they hate, which is what was implied. It's more that the US routinely topples beloved leaders and installs cruel dictators. The US frequently kills folks around the globe but rarely helps non-Americans (and barely helps Americans) in need. When it comes to foreign aid, I believe, the US ranks number 17 in percentage of tax-dollar spent on helping. But it ranks number one in military spending.

If you want to make the world a safer place, I have an easy plan. Stop hurting people and start helping them. For less then what the US spends on one month of war in Iraq, they could virtually end Malaria around the globe. (which is still a major killer in many places) For much, much, much, much less then the cost of the Iraq war, the US could fund a series of programs that would all but eliminate extreme poverty in the world. If the US did more of those things and less war, I'm willing to bet that there would be a lot less terrorists in the world in general, and far fewer that hate the US specifically.

Michael Moore:

I like him. I grew up in Michigan (for those who don't know, middle America, original home of the American car industry). The first flick by Moore that I saw was "Roger And Me" (it may have been the first one he made) and he was right. I can vouch that at least from the human side of the story, he got it completely right. I loved Bowling for Columbine, and I loved Fahrenheit 911 as well. I will say that all of his films are definitely made from his point of view. (respectively, industry should have more of a heart, we live in a society obsessed with violence and it shows, Bush is bad bad person) However, I find it just too funny how Moore went from being a surprisingly successful, minorly known, documentary film maker to incredibly hated "propagandist" over the course of a year or so. I was talking with my father about Moore. My dad's a 70 year old retired coach/school teacher, conservative, middle American old guy. He's never seen a Moore film in his life, and his stance is "I don't like what he stands for." I couldn't convince him otherwise. My brother-in-law (20 something mid west factory worker) owns Fahrenhype 911 and hates Moore. So I asked him why, "He's greedy, making lies, passing them off as truths, just to make some money." So I asked him if he saw Fahrenheit 911? "Hell no!" Ok then, never mind. :(

John Kerry:

He got my vote. Doesn't have the charisma he needed and made some serious tactical blunders, but I think the man is brilliant. (though I only judge from seeing his speeches and debates, I never actually met him, but hey, how else can you "do your civic duty" and pass judgments on politicians?) I think he really examines issues deeply, get's to know all of the complex in's and out's of problems, and the gives REAL solutions to the problems. (unlike certain other people who ran for president in 2004) Though, I may be biased, I agreed with many of his stances.

The Bus:

I would say that it is a bit Orwellian, but then again, we have the lovely Patriot Act. Though, I'm more inclined to say it's just flat dumb. At least in the US, a bus would be a very poor choice for a target of "suspicious behavior." What really kills me though is what things like that are encouraging. "Why McCarthyism, welcome back, we've missed you!"

Red Sox:

Stupid Massachusetts.

[bigted]

I went through some of my rhymes and found a verse I wrote related to the war and the issues of the world, if Will calls me up I could add it to a remix of "Tell Me Why" :kekeke: :

"It all comes from a down moment

Hyoricrite bums ae now folding

'Cause they thought the spotlight would shine out bright on them

For all eternity, words are deadly

Y'all ask for mercy, but your ass is hurting

Those below you, they won't console you

When they find their way ahead

And your spotlight blurs away slipping

You can break in a minute

When I finish this sentence

It is gonna be the beginning of ya ending

All our clocks are ticking

Every moment we're living

We shouldn't take for granted

'Cause love ones today are passing

For somebody, we see them dying in war in a gas tank

That exploded by a terroist

We're losing our own fellow Americans

And our world wide friends

That are human beings tryin' to be living

In peace but that's a tragedy to swallow again

A daughter that isn't comin' home to her parents

A brother that went over to try to make a living

All the sacrifices are blessings

'Cause they died to give us protection

But yet we always talk about the ice on our neck

Or all the shine on our wrist

Talkin' like a bunch of children

Why do we have to lie in illness?

Let's put the line on what we're building

By making a perfect plan

Getting the momentum in ya hand

Is what seperates the wisdom from a boy to a man"