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Who will have the most longevity? Will Smith or LL Cool J


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"Who Am I" would've been a perfect single to release as well, I mean clearly the difference between LL and Will has been the selection of singles on the most part, it's like I think more people would sleep on LL too if he didn't release such songs as singles, Will makes great songs but they never go to the radio it seems("Summer-Summertime" seems like all I got"), and like I said earlier if Will came more witty and didn't dumb down on "Mr. Nice Guy" I think more hip-hop heads would respect what he did on there even though he waited 5 years but it's like: "We waited 5 years for this?", I know that Will could've came better than that myself, especially since he blew off 5 years before he released it, I don't think people were overwhelmed by "Mr. Nice Guy", a lot of people probably even forgot about it, if he did a lil' better though people could've been puttin' it as a classic response record like "Mama Said Knock You Out" and "Ether" which'd stand the test of time and more people would be saying that Will's one of the top lyricists ever, I just wish that he said that the song "Lost and Found" was dedicated to Eminem, that'd been a better fit, with all the hype behind it and that'd made more impact, I was hoping for a whole track worth of punchlines against Eminem, I can't forget the dissapointment I felt when he only did one line, I mean if you're gonna do that why even mention it in your interviews, I was hoping it'd prove all the doubters wrong, it's just disgusting that Eminem's last couple albums ain't 1/10 as good as "Lost and Found" but yet they sold like 15 million combined, and I bet that more hip-hop fans could tell you more about LL's rap career than they could tell you about Will's rap career, there's probably more that could name all 12 of LL's albums than there is those who could name 12 songs that Will did...

Edited by bigted
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The problem is that Mr. Nice Guy wasn't a diss track. If it were, it wouldn't have been so general. As Will said, it was just a warning shot over the bow...

Mr. Nice Guy should have been more hard core like Born to Reign or Here he comes... Then it would've been sick

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The problem is that Mr. Nice Guy wasn't a diss track. If it were, it wouldn't have been so general. As Will said, it was just a warning shot over the bow...

Most legendary mcs don't make warning shot songs when they get dissed, they make diss tracks, LL woulda responded right away and done more than just a warning if Eminem said "f*** LL" especially on a song that was in heavy rotation like it was, more people heard that song than they any of Will's albums since then, that's what made it even worse for Will's rep, if Will made a hard diss track then he'd gotten more response and gain more cred as an mc, I mean he shoulda ripped Eminem the way he used to rip mcs in Philly, he shoulda released something like "I'm Comin'" or "Somethin' Like Dis" towards Em, then maybe Eminem's fans would realise that Fresh Prince is a better mc than their beloved Marshall, hip-hop is a competitive genre and Will can't be a nice guy when somebody disses him, he needs to tackle them mcs who diss him like he's Reggie White, Will should've just left it alone if he wasn't gonna deliver more, maybe "Born To Reign" would've went platinum if he said that "Born To Reign" song was dedicated to Eminem, would LL be getting so much cred as an mc if he only threw warning shots at Kool Moe Dee, Ice-T, and Canibus?

Edited by bigted
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maybe "Born To Reign" would've went platinum if he said that "Born To Reign" song was dedicated to Eminem...

Do you reallt think that.....I dont at all. Will openly discussed how he was responding to Eminem on Mr Nice Guy in numerous interviews he did. I dont think that did much for sales at all. It was all too late........5 years is a long time to wait to respond to something like that

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maybe "Born To Reign" would've went platinum if he said that "Born To Reign" song was dedicated to Eminem...

Do you reallt think that.....I dont at all. Will openly discussed how he was responding to Eminem on Mr Nice Guy in numerous interviews he did. I dont think that did much for sales at all. It was all too late........5 years is a long time to wait to respond to something like that

Well that's my point I honestly don't get what Will got out of doing "Mr. Nice Guy", it was too late to say anything, he shoulda just let it go if he didn't want to say anything 5 years ago, now it might've worked if "Born To Reign" was claimed an "Eminem diss track", things would've gotten interesting, Will blew an opportunity to solidify himself as an mc no question about it, Will could show these pop rappers how to make real battle rhymes and show them the reason why he's been in the game for so long, that's something LL's proven over and over but Will never done that, the opportunity was there since he was on top with "Big Willie Style" and "Willenium" then Eminem comes along and says "f*** Will Smith", Will runs off to do movies instead of responding, people fall off the bandwagon, and now he cries for respect as a rapper?

LL's been more focused on protecting his rap legacy than Will has been and that's why people say LL has nothing to prove but it seems that Will still has things to improve on, it seems Hollywood took some fire out of Fresh Prince the mc, you're right that "Mr. Nice Guy" didn't do anything for his sales, in fact it might've made less wanna check the album 'cause I remember hearing people saying that Will having "something for Eminem" was a gimmick since it was 5 years too late, it was a pointless track to promote for the album, Will just needs to release better singles if he wants his rap career to be stronger than it is, like I said it ain't like Eminem is gonna be around 10 years from now anyway, he ain't respected much anymore so I don't get what'd make Will wanna address Eminem in 2005, in 2000 he was a bigger threat and Will should've gave him a round there, he's about as worthless as Bow Wow now, that's somebody that don't need no response, people don't like him either but I just wished Will could put one of these rappers who diss him in their place so that nobody'll ever diss him again...

Btw, I only saw LL's "Freeze" video on TV one time since it came out a few weeks ago and the way things are lookin' it might be his 1st flop single in a long time....

Edited by bigted
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Most legendary mcs don't make warning shot songs when they get dissed, they make diss tracks, LL woulda responded right away and done more than just a warning if Eminem said "f*** LL"

Well Will isn't like "most legendary MCs." Does it mean that he isn't a legendary MC? Not at all... but he's a lot more easy going and not as combative as other MCs... It's just his nature.

One of the best things about Will is that he isn't like everyone else, and hasn't tried to be.... he's actually "kept it real" by being himself and that's why so many of his fans like his music. We've spent a lot of time applauding that individuality... it doesn't make any sense to complain that he doesn't react like "most legendary MCs."

Edited by MaxFly
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Most legendary mcs don't make warning shot songs when they get dissed, they make diss tracks, LL woulda responded right away and done more than just a warning if Eminem said "f*** LL"

Well Will isn't like "most legendary MCs." Does it mean that he isn't a legendary MC? Not at all... but he's a lot more easy going and not as combative as other MCs... It's just his nature.

I never said that he wasn't but most hip-hop fans only judge mcs on their battlin' skills, that's why Will gets slept on and they'd laugh at you if you mentioned him as a top 10 mc but LL wouldn't get laughed at if you mentioned him 'cause they know about the battles, now of course Will obviously has the skills and the creativity to rip mcs in battles but he has chosen not to do so, and the fact is that he's more talented that a lot of those who battle 'cause some hide their insecurities to make good songs without dissin' people, Eminem can't last as long as Will 'cause he simply has nothin' to rap about if he don't diss anybody...

I think ultimately that's why hip-hop fans overlook Will more than anything else 'cause of battlin', think about it people mention KRS 'cause he ripped MC Shan, they mention LL 'cause he ripped Kool Moe Dee, they mention Nas 'cause he ripped Jay-Z, they mention Jay-Z 'cause he ripped Mobb Deep, 2Pac 'cause he ripped Biggie, etc, it seems like hip-hop has limited itself though 'cause when you don't battle you look soft, it seems like everytime I go on a hip-hop message board people only talk about who battles who, it's looked like the WWE they just wanna see mcs slam each other, that's why hip-hop heads don't like LL as much as they used to either since he don't battle anybody anymore, most hip-hop fans only like LL 'cause of his battles, he's been consistant though just like Will and without the few public battles he's had be slept on like Will, Chuck D's the same way too, he chooses to make songs about social issues not battlin' mcs and he doesn't get mention as much as those who battled either, there's still enough that go out and buy LL's albums though since he's still one of the most popular today, but I guess those who appreciate great songs have a lot of respect for Will and LL, I respect LL's body of work, not just the battlin', those 2 actually proved that they could sell a lot of albums even when they don't battle unlike peers who just live and die by battlin' with their careers, and those're the ones who lose with their careers 'cause you can't last if you can't make hot albums that doesn't evolve around beef... I think there's not many as versatile as them in history of the game, that's why they've been around so long...

Edited by bigted
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I never said that he wasn't but most hip-hop fans only judge mcs on their battlin' skills, that's why Will gets slept on

Well the truth is that most hip-hop "fans" don't know that much about hip-hop to start with, and are generally caught up more in the culture than the music, so I'm not too concerned about what most hop-hop "fans" think or how they judge an MC.

Earlier, you said "Will blew an opportunity to solidify himself as an mc no question about it," but I don't agree. Will has already solidified himself as an MC. What he blew was an opportunity to solidify himself as one in the eyes of those who have a skewed understanding of what an MC is. The real travesty would be for him to conform to the standards of those people, some of whom weren't even alive when Will and Jeff started doing their thing.

I think that sometimes, we get too caught up in what people think. I've long made peace with the fact that Will may never get the respect that he deserves in hip-hop, but I've also reminded myself that this doesn't change the fact that he does deserve respect.

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Yeah a lot of fans are idiots quite frankly, I should just wave 'em off like Will does, they limit themselves to what "real hip-hop" should sound like 'cause of what's constantly out there, so if everyone beefs and you don't, you won't get credit, Will didn't lower himself down like that when spent time becoming a better actor, it'd been better if he said: "Big Will with 20 mil, Oscar Nominee, walked right past E" 'cause that's basically what he did when he got bigger respect in the film industry, he wouldn't have had time to do "Ali" if he spent that year battling Eminem to gain or keep bandwagon fans, you're right a lot of the people who buy music have no knowledge of the history of an artist, a lot come and go just 'cause you're "hot" at the moment, and at the same time LL took time away from focusing becoming a better actor just so he could please some fans who were jumping off the bandwagon and saying that he was going soft, even if LL didn't answer Canibus, Canibus would burn out in a few years 'cause all he was good at was battle rhymes, Bis can't make that many good songs that don't evolve around battling that's why he'd burned out himself and in fact he did, I know Da Brakes is a big Canibus fanbut I'm sure he could admit that Canibus ain't as consistant to be putting out hot music for 20 years like LL, even if LL didn't answer back he'd still win 'cause his career is leaps and bounds ahead of where Canibus could possibly get to, like LL said: "You're hating on the fact thatI'm everything you wanna be/Handsome, young, famous, plus legendary", the world knew that already even if L didn't say it..

It's good though that LL's worrying less about what others think now and is just doing his thing, and like I said earlier now that he ain't battlin' mcs I think he'll focus on becoming a household name in Hollywood and keep on expanding his career, basically both Will and LL are gonna end their own careers, nobody'll end it for them, they control their own destiny since they're hard workers, some of us might complain that Will might not rap as much as he used to but it's not like there's many rappers from his era putting out albums every 3 years still and only a handful put out as many as 9 albums, 10 if we cheat with Will like we cheat with LL by callin' his greatest hits an album, everyone loves Dr. Dre still and he puts out albums every 7 years and don't even write it, but he's "hard" like most "real rappers" according to "hip-hop" standards so he gets credit

especially since he rolls with who's "hot", yet they all jump on Will just for getting help on a few songs and that he does more movies than albums and that he don't "follow everybody when it's time to rap", it should be about quality not quanity, I don't think Will has to do a million movies either to prove that he's a great actor, LL got talent as an actor too, he might not have blockbuster hits but I enjoy quite a bit of his films too, he's gonna get more recogntion there soon enough if he wants to...

Edited by bigted
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Jumping into the conversation way late....

You all seem to have taken something pretty different from Mr. Nice Guy than I did. I didn't take it as a diss track at all, I took it to basically mean that the real Will Smith isn't a push over who always turns the other cheak, but he chooses to show the positive aspects of his life to the public.

I would disagree with battle rapping being what makes MC's. I think people dig KRS, Nas, Jaz-Z, LL, Kool Moe Dee, 2Pac, and Biggie cuz they made hot music, where/are talented, and brought something unique to the music. Will makes hot music, is talented, and brings many unique things to the music, but look at the tracks that get released as singles. The same old stuff.. "Oh boy, new Will Smith, yet another club song." He blew up with Jiggy but now it's just old hat with Switch, it's not new or interesting anymore. His singles are proof of what some of his worst detracters say about him... bubble gum rap. Of course we all listen to full albums so we know he does much more... But if you just judge an album based off of a single, than why would people judge Will any better than they have been? If you took his singles off of Willenium, B2R, and L&F and then released some of the better tracks, Wills rep would be very different right now, I think he'd be much more respected.

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Yeah but millions of people bought Will's albums though, all they have do is listen to the albums and they'd know that not all Will's songs are club songs, the ones who call Will bubblegum haven't even heard any of his albums I'd bet, to quote Jay-Z here: "Do you fools listen to music?/Or do you just skim through it?"

Well those fans who only like rappers who make songs that're thugged out they ain't gonna like Will no matter what he does, even if they listen to the album, there's always gonna be people hating on him no matter what he releases 'cause he ain't a hardcore rapper, he shouldn't change just to please them, but I think those who appreciate quality songs with substance and they heard the albums would have a lot of respect for Will, I don't see what's all the hate on club songs anyway, Will makes great club jams, now there's some rappers making wack club jams but Will knows how to rock a party, JJFP have always been about having fun, hip-hop started on party jams, it didn't start out hardcore, a lot of these kids that listen to hip-hop now think that 2Pac and Biggie were the pioneers, lol, there should always be fun in hip-hop, JJFP keep the originality of hip-hop alive, now some rappers can't rock the clubs though and that's a difference("Laffy Taffy") The closed minded people who only like thug rap and the ones who never heard his album can't be taken seriously when they diss Will, their opinion holds no weight, the

"Lost and Found" albumgot quite a bit of critical acclaim too...

btw speaking of Jay-Z 3/4 of Jay-Z' singles are club songs so I don't see what's the difference between him doing club songs and Will doing club songs, the same people that say Will ain't hip-hop are the ones who call Jay-Z a legend but what makes Jay hip-hop for doing club songs and not Will? ****ing hypocrites, now if people judge "Willenium" off of "Will2k" then maybe I should judge "Blueprint" off of "Girls, Girls, Girls"...Btw, a lot of people loved "Switch", it was one of the most downloaded songs in rap last year and it was topping all the charts, if people were sick of Will doing party songs it'd flop, Will performed it a lot of shows last year and the crowds went crazy, not every rapper has to preach to the audience like Will said in an interview years ago, not every rapper has to perform serious songs, now most of the songs on the radio ain't substance, if Will released one of his more lyrical songs the chances are they wouldn't play it anyway much, we all saw what happened to "Party Starter", people complain about the rap game not having substance but the most lyrical tracks never hit the airwaves, maybe 15 years ago, it ain't the golden era anymore, the best stuff don't get played on the radio...

Now people might be getting sick of hearing LL doing love songs 'cause that song "Freeze" ain't getting played at all on yet, "Control Myself"'s not really that popular anymore, that shouldn't be an excuse for why they ain't playing "Freeze", if the radio could play 5 50 Cent songs at once why can't they play 2 LL songs at once? LL does the same thing on 3/4 of his singles too by doing love songs but he makes great albums too though, I think the thing is now that if rappers ain't making songs about hustlin' and grillz the rap fans don't like it that much these days since that's the common trend, "The Definition" didn't sell much more than "Lost and Found" and it don't look like "Todd Smith" is gonna either, he'll barely go platinum, he ain't gonna do "Mr. Smith" numbers anymore just like Will ain't gonna do "Big Willie Style" numbers anymore, neither of themain't gonna ever be popular as they once were 10 years ago since they don't fit in with the current trends on the most part, the game's changed but I think the rappers ahead of them on the charts

are gonna come and go 'cause they don't have any creativity or desire to last, once they make less money they'll leave since that's all they care about, a lot of rappers sell their souls but Will and LL stay true to themselves that's why they're still here today...

Edited by bigted
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Jumping into the conversation way late....

You all seem to have taken something pretty different from Mr. Nice Guy than I did. I didn't take it as a diss track at all, I took it to basically mean that the real Will Smith isn't a push over who always turns the other cheak, but he chooses to show the positive aspects of his life to the public.

This is basically what I gleaned from the single as well.

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Yeah "Mr. Nice Guy" really had nothing to do with Eminem at all, it was just a message that Will wanted to send to critics that even though he's a nice guy, he's not somebody that they could walk over, probably Interscope's idea to just mention that he had "something for Eminem" to help promote his album, and I notice how a lot were anticipating a diss track, that got to show you how many people love beef, they did miss the true message of it, I think it'd been better if Will said he had something for his critics then maybe they'd understood it better, Interscope should of just sent it out to all the radio stations and then it'd been playing as much as "Switch" was, that shows you how dumb they are, LL's on the greatest rap label in the world and they release anything he wants them too, but with the labels Will's signed to in the last 10 years it's been a struggle to release all the singles that he desired to release, Jive had JJFP release whatever they wanted and it was great but the label turned to pop and dumped them, but on Columbia Will had to put his own money to make "So Fresh" video, if Columbia promoted that right it'd been his biggest song since "Summertime", then Interscope had the nerve to say that "Tell Me Why" was too political to release, they rather promote beef than substance, labels put their hands in too much and the artist don't have the freedom like they use to, that's why the rap game's in a struggle right now and there's so much crap on the charts, they know that ignorant kids make up a big percentage of the rap audience so they just release music that suits their needs to profit rather than releasing music that reach diverse audiences...

With "Tell Me Why" it was basically the favorite song by everyone that bought the album, basically a lot of hardcore fans that've been hating on Will for years even liked it, it'd been huge too, maybe it might be better if Will goes independent and release everything that he wants to release, even if it don't sell that much, and if "Tell Me Why" really meant as much as Will said it is he should've shot the video for it with his own money and promote it himself, **** Interscope...

Edited by bigted
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